“We should be running towards heartbreak–it is the place were ecstasy lives. I’m not talking about self-destruction, I’m talking about doing something you give a fuck about.”
— Kasia Urbaniak
“The word femininity is so loaded. It is like ‘I Love You.’ It never means the same thing twice.”
Anna: All right girlfriends, welcome to another episode of Girlskill podcast. Thank you for being here. If you're new to the podcast, welcome. I'm very excited that you're joining us especially this amazing episode that just totally blew my mind. Before I tell you about my guest today, and we are talking about sex dungeons, power dynamics, and Taoist nuns with Kasia Urbaniak, let me tell you that something exciting is happening at Girlskill.
Anna: I'm offering coaching packages for women who are ready to take their femininity and their feminine embodiment to the next level. How this works is I work with women one on one. I offer them coaching sessions, not sections, coaching sessions, one on one. Besides, I give them access to the program that I've created and just a lot of support and a lot of guidance and mentoring on the journey of transformation.
Anna: If you've been a listener on this podcast for a while and you know the message of femininity that I'm talking about, and you are interested in working with me, feel free to reach out. I also recommend that first, you go and sign up for a webinar that I've put together, a video exclusive training called the live Female Success that basically explains my whole philosophy on female success, on the modern female epidemic and my approach to transforming your life and actually living your version of success as a woman because it is very different to the version of successes of men that has been sold to us and is being sold to us continuously.
Anna: If you resonate with the message and with what I'm writing, with everything, I highly encourage you that you first actually watch the webinar if you haven't and at the end of the webinar, I give you the next steps on how to get in touch with me, how we can schedule a call and where we can talk about working together. Make sure to go to Girlskill.com/webinar to check out all the details of that and I can't wait to get with you on a call because this is just so important for any woman who just wants to.
Anna: For women especially who are in transition and are feeling like something is missing. This is for you. All right, let's go into today's episode with Kasia Urbaniak. My god like this woman is literally either like a channel or an angel or like freaking out of this world. First of all, we talked about dominatrix. She has gone to the highest of the highest realms of being a dominator in the sex dungeons of New York and while at the same time, she was studying Taoist in some of the monasteries in China.
Anna: This is very controversial, contradictory so it's such an interesting conversation actually and so during her journey so we talked about all of this. I asked her a lot of questions about dominatrix because I personally am interested in. I'm sure you are interested in and how does this work, all worked. What did she learn from it and also, we talked a little bit about her journey in the monastery and what I was interested in and like why.
Anna: Why would you work in dominatrix and she explains why, and so we'll hear what she learned from this but most importantly, what Kasia is doing today. She's the founder and CEO of The Academy, a school that teaches women about power and power dynamics. She has already helped hundreds of women step into leadership positions in their personal and professional lives. Her teachings, as I mentioned before, come of 10 years of working as a dominatrix as well as pursuing Taoist alchemy in one of the oldest female led monasteries in China.
Anna: She has certifications in disciplines like Medical Qigong, systematic constellations and so on and so on so we're ready to talk about. It's such a fascinating conversation. We talked about the power dynamics and how power indeed is yours and as a woman and I love this interview because Kasia is very clear that no one is making you feel powerless. It is up to you to take the power and be an equal in any negotiation whether you're doing with a man, whether you're doing it with a woman.
Anna: She also teaches women how to respond to men, how to respond to sexual. For example, advances and so on and so on which is so helpful and I love her approach because it's coming from a powerful position even when she's dealing with difficult situation like sexual harassment and so on and so on. She's talking about a win-win situation.
Anna: One of my favorite subjects and the questions I asked Kasia is we talked about the bittersweet victory of the independent woman, something that you will hear me say and talk about in the webinar in different terms but I asked her what she means by that and our messages are so aligned because she talks about how we all wanted "independence" and then, here's our bittersweet victory and how we all have to deal with this as women.
Anna: This is exactly what my webinar is about. This is exactly what my coaching is about so I am sure that you'll really, really enjoy this interview and I hope that you share it with everyone you know because Kasia's work is simply incredible. All right, I will let you listen to it. We'll shut up and I'll see you at the end.
Anna: Today on Girlskill podcast, I'm super excited to welcome Kasia Urbaniak. She's currently in Paris but normally based in New York so Kasia, welcome to Girlskill. I'm super excited to have you today.
Kasia: Thank you for having me.
Anna: Yeah, so we're going to get into some juicy subjects in a couple of minutes but before that, let's as usual, start with our blitz questions. That's how I call it. Kasia, tell me, what is your superpower?
Kasia: I have so many.
Anna: Okay, name a couple then.
Kasia: I see people's fears and desires very easily, everybody's very well. I also have the superpower of living in a stream of constant coincidence and bringing to me the people that I most need and want and my third superpower would be asking people to do things for me in a way that when they fulfill my request, it makes them happy.
Anna: That's definitely a superpower so many women need today. Maybe we can learn from you a little bit. Maybe you can give us some tips. I love that. Okay, awesome. Let's move on. Kasia, who is your girl crush?
Kasia: I might not have one right now.
Anna: That's fine. Okay, let me rephrase then the question. Name one person dead or alive that you'd love to have dinner with.
Kasia: I would love to have dinner with Jodorowsky, Alejandro. I would love to try to have dinner with him. He's a filmmaker and a tarot card reader and a magician and he tried to make one of the Dune movies, the Frank Herbert's book Dune, the science fiction novel.
Anna: I know you're a big fan of it. Yes, I have-
Kasia: Yeah, so one of his failed attempts became a fantastic documentary. Yeah, I'd love to meet him.
Anna: Awesome. What is your biggest fear?
Kasia: Running out of time, dying before I finish.
Anna: As in finish your mission?
Kasia: Yeah.
Anna: Okay. We're going to talk about this in a couple of minutes. What is your astrological sign and how are you using it in your daily life?
Kasia: There's the standard astrology in which I am a cancer, and I also really like human design astrology, which does not have the same common names. I would be a generator, hermetic, martyr.
Anna: My goodness. I know about human design but I didn't know that human design has its own astrology.
Kasia: It is astrology. It's just a different approach to it.
Anna: Yeah, yeah, because it's based on like natal mapping and all of that but I didn't know it actually, not qualifies you but also gives you some more characteristics than Generator, Manifestor and all of that.
Kasia: Yeah. No, it's rich. It's very, very complex and very, very immense.
Anna: Okay, awesome. All right, and last question. Kasia, for you, on a scale of one to 10, how excited are you about life right now and why?
Kasia: Ten because I'm living the life of my dreams and it's a constant stream of magic and basically, I'm so fucking grateful that I get to have this human experience, even the details of it are less important than the privilege of having eyes and skin and getting to be human, have feelings.
Anna: Love it. Now, please introduce yourself Kasia and I'd love to hear more about living the life of your dreams and the magic of your human experience.
Kasia: I'm Kasia Urbaniak and I run a school for women called The Academy and I teach women about power, power dynamics and how to have what they want and love what they have and how to work through some of the conditioning that most women on this earth are subject to from the moment they're born, how to overcome it and how to live from a place that's spontaneous, fully self-expressed, really bold, natural and powerful.
Anna: My goodness. Love it. This should be the tagline of this podcast indeed because I explore femininity in womanhood and I love how you describe it. Awesome, so Kasia, let me ask you because this is the question asked when we were on the show. What is femininity for you?
Kasia: The word femininity is so loaded and it's like saying, "I love you." It never means the same thing to the same person twice but it can tell you something just about being born a biological woman is that I am very aware of the privilege of being the holder of the role of giving birth and continuing life even though I myself will likely not have children, how my entire being and position in the world is set because of this, looking at femininity from a different angle.
Kasia: I'm not sure what to make of it. There are characteristics inscribed to the feminine that are emotional or essential. I'd like those qualities to be deemed more universal and not inherently in the category of the feminine because I think what this world needs, men and women and all of us is a lot more intimacy, human contact, embodiment, connection with the body, central awareness, awareness of our surroundings, awareness of how all things are interconnected.
Kasia: An ability to feel what's alive and recognize what's dead, what no longer serves, the ability to see what needs to be watered with our attention in order to grow. Basically, orienting all of humanity towards a worship of life and being really cautious and aware of where our death drive comes in so the death drive is inscribed to the masculine and this central worship of life is inscribed to the feminine and I think it would be really lovely if we were all more oriented towards life.\
Kasia: Not giving that characteristic and also shoving it under the drawer with all of the things we hate about what we think female behavior is.
Anna: Love it. Beautiful, very wise words, Kasia and as you're speaking, I'm like, are you channeling some universal truth or wisdom here because I don't get to hear that often and I have different kinds of guests and it's clear that you have been on a journey and are still on the journey which is magical so-
Kasia: Yes, I have.
Anna: We're going to talk about it in a second but let me ask you another question, ask women on the show is do you consider yourself successful and why?
Kasia: My goodness, yes, I am outrageously successful. I have developed a discipline, two disciplines that I think make life worth living and make me successful every day and the first discipline is the relentless willingness to pour my heart into whatever I do so fully that it's susceptible to breaking. I put myself in a position of heartbreak as often as I can. If my heart can't be broken by what it is that I'm attempting to do, it's not worth doing.
Kasia: The second thing is I don't have a routine and this sounds like anti-discipline but it's not because the discipline of making choices moment by moment in accordance with what feels absolutely precisely right is one of the most difficult and rewarding things a human being can do. Both of those things together daily make me successful and outrageously successful whether I'm successful at hosting, the absolutely perfect dinner party or dressing in a way that makes me feel great or giving a lecture to 500 people.
Kasia: On the external level, I'm outrageously successful because my life purpose, my job and who I am are all exactly the same thing so there is no failure for me. There's only success.
Anna: It is all in alignment with the truth.
Kasia: I can't fail being me and if being me is my job and speaking my truth is my job and doing my favorite thing in the world which is seeing others and speaking to them about them and moving through life with them. If these things are so fundamental to my nature, if being me is my job, I cannot fail it.
Anna: Yeah, absolutely. I want to clarify the first thing that you mentioned. If it's not heartbreaking or you're not ready for a heartbreak, you said it's not worth it. What do you mean by that?
Kasia: Let me clarify. If it's not heartbreaking, it's not worth it. If I'm not putting my heart at risk, if I'm not putting myself in a position where my heart can't break, if I already know my heart is unbreakable, it means I'm doing something I don't care enough about. I haven't put my heart into it deeply enough.
Anna: When you say heartbreak, what do you mean by that because I think it could mean different things to different people?
Kasia: Ask any person whose experiencing heartbreak. They know when they're feeling it. You're completely fucked. You feel like everything is shattering. It's a beautiful state.
Anna: Yeah, but so many of us are afraid of it or running away from it.
Kasia: We should be running towards it. It's the only place where rupture lives. It's the only place where ecstasy lives. I'm not talking about self-destruction. I'm talking about doing shit you give a fuck about that you're willing to feel frightened, feel disappointed, feel devastated when it doesn't work out. If you're willing to put your heart into something that deeply, it's actually paradoxically one of the only ways to not have heartbreak happen because you're so satisfied in the doing that the outcome doesn't matter anymore.
Anna: How do you personally move through that? I understand it completely-
Kasia: I just follow the things I love and I don't do anything else. There's so many things that people do that I'm supposed to do that I just don't do. I don't do. It's almost impossible for me to do something I don't want to do. It's almost impossible for me to do something I don't care about. I try and it doesn't work. I can't do it so in the pursuit of the things that I most care about and love, as unrealistic, naïve or delusional they may sound, as long as I'm alive and inspired, I know I'm going in the right direction. I know that like the … Everything makes itself available to me in that statement.
Anna: Can you give us an example of a situation that you have poured your heart into and then let's say there was a devastation or a state that you're talking about, how you pushed through it or like what were the realizations there or what have you come to in the end?
Kasia: It's a constant arc. It's not like a story where I want something. I go for it. I don't get it and then my heart is broken. It's like when I'm in a classroom with a student and I'm going through it with them and I'm there with them and I feel them and we're moving through a really difficult space and I am absolutely feeling everything they're feeling but I know that we have to move forward.
Kasia: It's like that. It's like even just like loving this world and being very, very aware of how fucked it is right now and wanting so much for something better is both pouring my heart into my life and totally fucking heartbreaking. It's just both at the same time. It's incredible. It's like we are sitting at this huge beautiful banquet table and everyone is starving.
Kasia: There's so much beauty and so much life everywhere and the deprivation and starvation is so intense, it's heartbreaking.
Anna: We're all waiting for that beautiful delicious dinner.
Kasia: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Anna: We're looking for that meal-
Kasia: Except it's right fucking here.
Anna: Yeah, yeah. We just need to know how to get to it and so hopefully, with this conversation, Kasia, me and all of the listeners will get one step closer to it so let's switch gears a little bit and I want to talk about dominatrix. I know you've probably talked about it so much and you might have [inaudible 00:22:18] being yourself here a little bit, but you are the first guest-
Kasia: Actually, I haven't.
Anna: Really? Okay.
Kasia: Yeah, there's very little talk … There's a mention of my experiences in the dungeon but-
Anna: You mostly talk about the power in your work currently. Okay, cool. Awesome, so let's talk about this so I'll share with you my experience. Obviously, the whole dominatrix was introduced to my world like to millions of women and I think you know what I'm talking about is through the Fifty Shades of Grey which is like such a cheesy way of portraying the whole thing, a person I think and then through this, through these books, I have found the Story of O.
Anna: I don't know if you're familiar with that and this has completely blown my mind and I understood the Fifty Shades of Grey is nothing compared to that, and so I'm … I don't know if I'm familiar with it I guess. Through just from that book like that, for me, was the true sub-dom and whatever happens in the dungeon and Fifty Shades of Grey is nothing. I'm curious about your experience.
Anna: I know that you got into dominatrix for the money and to make a living out of it, and so I'm curious about yeah, the story of how you got to it and really, how was the experience? What did you learn and if you can share some stories with us, I think that would be amazing. I'm assuming you were … A lot of men were coming to you to fulfill their pleasures, fantasies, their deepest darkest desires and you were there with a whip I suppose and fulfilling those desires for money. I don't know if I'm right or not but I'm very curious to hear what you have to say.
Kasia: First, I don't think at the time, I was aware of how insane it is that we ask in America of 18 year olds to come up with hundreds of thousands of dollars to get a college education. Looking back, I think it's insane but yeah, I started for that reason and I didn't quite find what I was expecting.
Anna: You mean in college or in dominatrix? You started because you wanted to pay for your education.
Kasia: Yeah, yeah, yeah. My education had lots of interruptions and one of the things I was doing was I was studying Taoism and I was pursuing it very, very seriously. Taoism as in the Chinese spiritual practice that gave birth to Chinese medicine, Chines martial arts, the Tao Te Ching so in studying to be a Taoist, it also meant learning how to diagnose people, heal people, how to fight, how to meditate and it's a very beautiful tradition that has a lot to offer and as I was studying … One of the great things about making money is you can afford to fly places and study with really great teachers.
Kasia: I was going through this period of time where I was working in the dungeon, going to college and also flying around the world to study with Taoist masters and-
Anna: It sounds like a great story.
Kasia: The cross pollination of those things was really profound. The first thing was I had this moment where it was pretty early on and I was in the dungeon and I was doing a session and I had this naked man in front of me and I suddenly realized that he didn't know my real name and I didn't know his real name. His name was probably fake too and we were these two bodies in a room where everything spoken was imagined, essentially a lie.
Kasia: Everything is invented. I am his governess. I am his teacher. I am his master. I am his mother. I am his nurse. Whatever it is, it's made up and I had this sudden feeling that this was one of the most extraordinary laboratories for human identity because our identities and our stories were not present in the room. This was after I had been on a long retreat in China and I still had that very hyper extenuated momentum that did the perception.
Kasia: When you're practicing and studying to be able to read people's bodies and see where their energy is stagnant or flowing, where their illnesses are, if their liver is depleted or whatever. It's so much attention. You're putting so much attention on a person that I felt like in that moment, I was seeing him in hyper real colors and it was so extraordinary to be witnessing a human being that's completely naked of identity, of name, of role and we're making it up.
Kasia: We're making it up as we go along. We're making it up and I'm leading it and I found myself doing this particular session in such an extraordinary way where every sentence that I landed in his body had such a profound effect, I could see it. I was like one phrase after another. The first thing was he was very agreeable and I was looking for a place where he was rebelling so I called his chin rebellious. It was absurd and ridiculous.
Kasia: I saw something and I called it out. It was like, was that rebellious or was that shame? You like to do a good job, don't you? You like being really good. You like being really good, don't you? It started moving towards like the mother space of him obeying his mother and then the next thing you know, we're in this very different space where we're like two kids on a playground and we're play fighting and I'm the girl who kicks his ass.
Kasia: It was one of those sessions where it was like 17 sessions in one. So many things happened and the inspiration was entirely based on watching what was happening to his psychology, to his emotional body, to his physical body, to his erotic body, what was happening moment by moment by moment. Most of our interaction was in the realm of speech and it was so fucking hot and it was so crazy because I felt like both of our bodies dissolved.
Kasia: We were just energy. It was so clear to me after that session that something had happened in that room that would continue to stay with me for the rest of my life. I walked out of that session so blown open and seeing so clearly how much effort it takes to perform being a human being that's unnecessary and how essential, how easy it is to see what we all essentially need and want and how we're moving and how so much of our social conditioning is an absolute fucking betrayal of that.
Kasia: There is this beautiful period of maybe about 10 years where the practices that I was studying in this laboratory of the dungeon were informing each other. I started to see really clearly that one informed the other. One strengthened the other and it's totally crazy and weird like I was on the road to being a Taoist nun. I stopped four days before getting ordained as a Taoist nun.
Kasia: At the same time that I was becoming a very successful dominatrix so polar opposite but they so beautifully strengthened and complemented one another.
Anna: That's incredible. What you're describing to me almost seems like it's like therapy on steroids. You know why?
Kasia: Therapy approaches people like they have a problem and they're sick and one of the things that's beautiful about the dungeon is you approach everybody's fetish or shameful sexuality or desire or problem, not as something to be healed but something to be celebrated and moved into a new place. One of the things that I really insist upon now as a teacher is that people don't think of this school as a place to come get healed because that already makes the assumption that they're broken and people are not broken.
Kasia: People are not broken. There's nothing wrong with most of the people that I come across. There's nothing wrong there. The self-esteem of human beings in general is unnecessarily and ridiculously low and the habit of self-attack and self-judgment and self-criticism instead of self-celebration is such a huge problem and makes this world so much less fun and beautiful than it could be.
Anna: Where do you think that comes from because it's in all of us?
Kasia: It's a Judeo-Christian bias. It's morality. Morality is actually a problem like we think we get the right to say what's good and bad and once you decide something's bad, it seems like you have control over it and power over it but you don't. The moment you disconnect from something to humanize something, you have no say in it anymore. Saying violence is bad did not decrease war.
Kasia: Saying that extramarital sex is bad or sex for pleasure is bad has us lived in a world of porn. Saying greed is bad has us live in a world that has one of the most greedy and unbalanced economic systems in all of history. It's much wiser to look at things and say, how can I use this better? How can I take this and make this useful? How can I make this beautiful? How can I alchemize this? What purpose could this serve that's better than the one that it has now?
Kasia: I think all vices are virtues misplaced and all virtues are potentially vices. There's no good … We don't have a lot of facility with using qualities well when it comes to good and bad so we think we can decide that something that's true about us, inside of us is bad and that if we decide that it's bad and disconnect from it as much as possible, then we'll be good and we'll belong, and it doesn't work.
Kasia: It just makes us amputate ourselves. It doesn't work. It doesn't make for a whole powerful radiant loving human beings and makes for a crippled repressed angry and accidentally or intentionally dangerous and violent human beings.
Anna: Yeah, absolutely. When we look at thousands and thousands of years of history, it's mostly how humans try to make sense of the world, try to create communities, establish some rules. There's this thing of like we can't deal with chaos or something that we have this, I guess, inherent need to control and it's just thousands of thousands of years of putting all these rules and conditions and whatever is happening to us today is to be solved of all of that and we're all like walking around not really broken.
Anna: This is the human experience but we're like, you're right. There's so much self-judgment and self-criticism and then all of that is just played out in the world whether in politics, whether in feminism, whether in patriarchy, whether in human interactions.
Kasia: Absolutely, you totally get it. Absolutely.
Anna: Yeah, so I have a couple of questions, Kasia, about the dominatrix. You talked so beautifully about everything right and your experience and everything but I'm still curious about so let me ask you this first of all is how did you make the decision to get into it because there are many options to make money so for example, you could go and be a waitress, a bartender or do whatever else.
Kasia: It doesn't make nearly as much money. I could've been a hooker but I didn't have the guts.
Anna: Yeah, were you ashamed at any point? Was there anything as in like guilt or some sort of because I don't know if I could like I'm thinking, would I be able to do this? I'm like, shit, I don't think I would so I'm curious about what gave you the courage or the bravery to just go for it and then get involved with this whole industry?
Kasia: There were two things. I was fucking terrified. I was really scared. My first session was a disaster. After my first session, I was so bad at it. I didn't know what the hell I was doing. I went and I got a video of a dominatrix. I wrote down every fucking word she said for an hour. I memorized every single line before I went back in the next day and I was like a geek.
Kasia: I have really, really, really prepared. I really tried to figure it out and I drew inspiration from all places. I'm going to get really good at this. I have to figure this out. I have to figure this out. One of my biggest inspirations was Cesar Millan like the dog whisperer. I had some of my biggest breakthroughs reading his book. He's talking about training dogs and I learned so much about training men while he talks about training dogs.
Kasia: Another thing that I don't really talk about very often is I had a father figure who was a famous writer. He was my mother's lover and he took his life when I was a teenager and he was a huge inspiration to me and he was a very controversial writer who was, as I later found out after his death, very much in the BDSM scene and this into the state of masochistic activities in New York City. I had this like thing in the back of my mind that if I got into this world, I would learn more about this father figure of mine as an adult and I did.
Kasia: I met people who knew him and told me stories and it was incredible because I felt like a detective. Here was this incredibly powerful figure in my life, a beautiful influence who believed that I was a child prodigy writer and himself was so provocative and controversial, so fascinating and then suddenly, he kills himself and he's gone. Then, there's this period of time. He was also like pretty well-known for being a master of disguise so he loved to wear disguises and completely transform how he looked and walked through the streets of New York City.
Kasia: He was pretty well-known when I was young. After he killed himself, I would look around and I was absolutely convinced that he didn't actually kill himself. He was playing a trick on us all. He was playing the biggest fuck you trick he could think of and that-
Anna: My mother passed away when I was really young, I was eight. You were a teenager back then but I don't know if we have this thing about our big people who influenced us deeply in our life but I think for a couple of years, I actually thought it didn't happen, that she would just go off and I would look for her in the streets and I actually believed that this whole thing is set up.
Kasia: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Anna: It's such a bizarre experience.
Kasia: I didn't know anybody else had that. I totally had that.
Anna: Yeah, yeah, it's weird.
Kasia: It was interesting because when I was making my way through that very strange New York underworld, he was a master of disguise. Everybody was wearing disguises. It really felt like a detective novel in which I was searching for a father while dominating men. It was really … I think that might've been one of the things to answer your question, that gave me more courage to-
Anna: To pursue.
Kasia: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also, just to be fair like at the time like to make that much money, my choices were to be a dominatrix or a hooker and like-
Anna: How much money are we talking about?
Kasia: I got really good at making money as a dominatrix so I probably made maybe like a hundred times more than the average dominatrix but like at that time, you have to remember, it was like 20 years ago. The starting rate was about $100 an hour so that's the starting rate so that's like … Then, if you're an independent dominatrix in those times, you could charge $800 an hour. I went way beyond that but you can't do that bartending.
Anna: Yeah, absolutely. Is it really in like the Eyes Wide Shut. The movie where Tom Cruise walks around with like the mask and all of that and what happens in the session so if you could, a little bit, give us a glimpse of that world because I'm really curious about and men pays so much money and we're talking about thousands and thousands of dollars per hour to experience it.
Anna: It's a little bit bizarre like why do you think they do that? Why can't they do this let's say in their bedrooms or whatever because this is like a heightened version of BDSM I suppose. I'm so curious about this. As you said, it's psychological. It's something so bizarre to me and then mysterious and exciting at the same time.
Kasia: What's your question?
Anna: I'm like, said all your 10 questions so how does, if you could describe to us, how does a session look like?
Kasia: Okay, so imagine I'm doing a session with you. I can hear in your voice that you breath high so the first thing that I would do is I'd put my hand on your head and pull your hair back and look into your eyes, place my hand on your chest, press downwards to see if I could get your breath deeper into your belly and I would look and see if you're looking at me with the eyes of a child or the eyes of a rebel, the eyes of a competitor, the eyes of somebody who so badly wants to be ravished and start creating a scene.
Kasia: Now, there is this beautiful experience before a scene even begins which is the interview and that's where I get to test the possibilities of where I can go in the scene, what characters we can play, what physical experiences their body needs like a lot of women, they need pressure. They need like imagine a whole body hug delivered by three people. That's not true of all like the effect that being pierced or poked or cut or spanked or slapped, or sat on, or pressed or bound.
Kasia: All of those have different impacts. They create different psychological states. They create different physical experiences. We carry so much undigested energy in our bodies and so much pressure, so okay. Let's imagine a session for somebody, let's say a man. It might be that his sexuality is longing to be expressed through something that fascinated him when he was a teenager or a young boy. We talked a little bit about that, I asked him some provocative questions and we start to build a scene.
Kasia: The incredible range of what's possible in a scene and even the unpredictability in where it ends up is so vast that it becomes difficult to even answer a question like that like am I going to dress in like a priest? Am I going to be a superhero? Am I going to inspect him? Am I going to make him work for something prove himself? Is he going to win or is he going to fail? Does he need to fail? Does he need to breakdown into tears as a failure and have that experience and be nurtured through it or be punished for it and feel like he has to strengthen himself up again?
Kasia: The similarities and differences in dominating men and women are also really interesting. I think all human beings really in this culture and in this time and in this age long deeply, deeply to be seen. Not for what they do but for who they are to be seen and to have their imagination activated and to feel erotically alive and be in a place of both mystery suspense but also feel like they're in absolutely fucking great hands, that they can go to an edge but know that they will land safely to feel an edge of danger but knowing that they will not be crashed.
Kasia: This is the cocoon in which all of the magic happens. They have to feel my authority is absolute and they are absolutely at the end of the day no matter what we do safe, so that we can explore all of the theatrics, all of the emotions, all of the erotic possibilities. What's really interesting about this on a really, really basic level, and I said this before and it's like I could have been a hooker or a dominatrix.
Kasia: What's really interesting is that in an hour long session you're not allowed to have sex, you're not allowed to have sexual contact. Try spending an hour, putting attention on someone, getting them really excited but not kissing them, not fucking them. An hour is actually a lot of time to feel with erotic energy without … Most people don't even have that experience with foreplay.
Anna: Yeah. The other day was in the bedroom of my husband and we're also conditioned for the goal to have in the bedroom a goal, a sex is a goal and I'm like, "Can we do this for an hour without a goal?" He just looked at me like he didn't understand what the fuck I just told him. He's like, "What do you mean?" I'm like, "I don't know, I just want to be with you here now with your skin on the bed where we caress each other. We don't even touch each other.
Anna: I'm like, don't start with the center as in my vagina. That is the last thing you want to touch. I'm doing embodiment work by the way. I'm training in Feminine Embodiment Coach and it's-
Kasia: Very cool.
Anna: Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing what I'm discovering and he just looks at me. He's like, "What?" which is so funny. He asked-
Kasia: Yeah. Wait. Wait. You just said something so, so, so, so important, so important because the gift you're giving to him is tremendous. First, through you for you and then to him, it's this sensual aliveness. Not sexual, sensual aliveness that awakens the most blessed part of the animal in us that has this have instincts and intuition that are healthy for the planet.
Kasia: This is one of the most important things that you just accidently opened up right now just by talking about being in bed with him but no, it's so, so important. What I see when I look at the world is the animal of people's bodies is asleep and dead. We can't tell when we're being lied to. We can't tell which politician is full of shit. We can't tell if a mansion is going to make us happy or a beach hut is going to make us happy. We make decisions that are disembodied.
Kasia: This whole space in which there is sensuality but no sex is one way for human beings to start bringing their animal bodies to life so that they don't need a diet in order to know what food do they need to eat to be their ideal weight and healthy, so that they don't need a religion to know God, so they don't need an ideology to know who to vote for, so they don't need a decorator or a travel agent or fucking psychologist. They don't need any of it because they know how to move through life.
Kasia: Our bodies when we're connected mind, heart and body, when we're connected fully through, we always know everything we need to know in the moment. I remember when a big tsunami hit I think it was Sri Lanka, maybe I'm fucking it up right now but it was in 2002. I just remember just one of these facts that we hear about often but this time it really struck me that all of the animals knew to go to higher ground way before the tsunami hit.
Kasia: What makes us human animals so fucking stupid that we don't have that faculty anymore, and it's the reason we have a floating island of plastic in the ocean. Our bodies are dead so we can't see these basic things like we suck at being human beings. It may sound so crazy, here is this woman teaching female empowerment who used to be a dominatrix whose mission is to teach human beings how to be animals again so that the whole Earth gets healed. It seems nonsensical but it also body-wise it's the only fucking thing that makes sense to me.
Kasia: When you're lying in bed with your husband and going I want to feel your skin. First, you're giving yourself the greater experience of having a human body of being alive, training your own heart, mind and body to be connected, to be alive and awake. Bringing your partner into that state, educating him to have the same faculties that the brilliance of nature has. I am absolutely a child of the two paths that I followed.
Kasia: Taoism is a path where the tao means the way, it means nature, it means following the life force. They talk about the three bodies, the physical body, the emotional body and the mental body. Of course, as a Taoist I brought that into the fucking dungeon and dominated and explored in that same way and found that because I was in a space of prolonged sensuality without sex, sometimes I would do 10 hours of sessions in a row.
Kasia: The amount of erotic energy, the amount of wild imagination and a heart-opening catharsis and emotions and ideas like I was in a space where I was constantly practicing the three bodies, without a fucking orgasm, without touching a dick, without any of that. This huge, huge gift I got of this sustained laboratory that I got to explore being a human animal over and over and over again, and feeling like this is the fucking solution, this is what people are missing.
Kasia: People are eating their own food, people are being lied to. They're doing jobs they don't care about. They're picking partners for the wrong reasons. They've lost some fundamental body-based wisdom that it's time for us to regain and sensuality is one of the ways. One of the reasons I deal so much in the school with women's power and power dynamics is women for whatever reason maybe we can think millennia of subjugation.
Kasia: For whatever reason women tends to have more access to their emotional and physical body. They tend to feel more, they tend to. We can have 1,000 theories about why is it biochemistry, is it because we tend to be self-aware and self-conscious, is it because we give birth, whatever. I don't give a shit what the reason is, the tendency is there. If my feeling is if we get women living and being incredibly powerful from a place where they're that connected, then we stand a much greater chance of awakening the wisdom of the animal body in all human beings.
Kasia: We're living in modern society without going back to some primitive fantasy but in modern society is alive and awake, people making decisions based on the reality that we feel through our bodies moment by moment by moment. A well-attuned, intuitive, instinctive human being, that's what we fucking need. Okay. Then there's this millennia of conditioning that turns out it's actually not that hard to break. Once a woman breaks her good girl bullshit and start seeing how privileged other people are to be maybe even dominated by her especially when she's connected to her erotic wisdom, to her body wisdom.
Kasia: We have a world led by badass bitches who are teaching people to feel. A world where empathy is not a weakness. A world where what is needed next is fully felt and honored and followed, and I think it's one of the best ways to organize society.
Anna: Yeah, absolutely. I feel like we're doing the same work but on a different dimension because this whole feminine embodiment coaching that I'm doing and the training that I'm going through now has opened me up in so many different ways. Actually, the Girlskill brand, I'm not sure if you manage to look at the website but it's all connected to wolves, to the Women Who Run with the Wolves.
Anna: Yeah. It was crazy because as soon as I stepped into this embodiment work, I think a month or two later I got pregnant, and all of the women in our group with my coach are like, "This is freaking amazing." It is indeed because I am even deeper connected now with my body and you can't imagine how everyday I'm looking at my breasts who are just growing by themselves, filling up with whatever milk hormones. I'm looking at my belly and I'm glad my hips widening up and I've never been connected to my … I'm like, "My God, I am an animal."
Anna: I feel like there's so few people who … Even women who get pregnant but are not doing this work and dropping from the head, all we need to do as women is get from the fucking head, into the heart, into the womb, that's the work. It's incredible what's happening to me and how much more in tune I am with my body. Everything you're telling me right now is so in tuned with what I'm doing with my work and why we're here with you today. Because I'm like, "Gees, why are we so focused on the external?" I don't even want to go there.
Anna: What I love about your work is that … Let's perhaps switch to power and the work you're doing with women because you mentioned something, when a woman is in her power and you're teaching women to actually work with their bodies and I don't know how and why but inherently I have that and I've developed that perhaps through my childhood. As I told you I lost my mother and I had a very tough journey.
Anna: What I love about your work … You have a workshop called Cornering Harvey, right? You're working with these women in very high positions and CEOs and that is my quest actually, my mission is to redefine female success. Deep down inside of me know that there is a way to lead in a more feminine way, in instinctual, and what you said teaching people how to feel. There are badass bitches out there like you and me, we're teaching people specially women how to feel more and how to lean in a feminine way.
Anna: I love your work. You're accessing these women and you're teaching them all of this but without telling them that men are to blame or the patriarchy to blame. I'm so fucking tired of this word notion whatever. You say you start your workshops with actually honoring the patriarchy. I love how you also celebrate men in mass community, I know this whole thing plays. When I was listening to you interviews I'm like, "Fucking yes, this is all we need. I don't want a futurist female, I wanted both. I want a human experience."
Anna: It's not about us versus them, wanting has become us, theirs versus them. I love the approach that you're doing because you're starting with Cornering Harvey, right? You're giving them what they want I suppose but then you're giving them what they need actually in your workshops.
Kasia: I don't see a contradiction because I do think patriarchy is a problem but patriarchy as defined by psycho-emotional virus that both men and women carry like the patriarchy is not carried by men. It's carried by women as much as by men if not more. We can use different words. We can call it different things. The masculine on the planet is super wounded right now and maybe in charge and then may have lots of positions and power.
Kasia: I think it's a mistake to overlook that when there's a shift in power, when there's a shift in energy, when there's a shift in how things are, all of the different participants and all of the different whether it's men, women, everyone's affected. You can't really make long lasting profound change unless you consider everyone. Getting revenge on men is like fighting for crumbs, it's too small a vision. It's too petty. We can do much, much better than that.
Kasia: Including everyone making them allies and transforming how human beings relate to one another, that's a vision we're worth waking up for in the morning.
Anna: Yeah, absolutely.
Kasia: We don't call it Cornering Harvey anymore but A Verbal Self-Defense curriculum is really important because women withholds so much. Women sensor the fuck out of themselves. Women due to maybe a millennia of trauma, social conditioning, whatever. The point is like one of the first things to do is to teach women verbal self-defense, so they feel more access to radical self-expression, to honesty, to leadership.
Kasia: The self-inhibition of speech is so intense but sometimes it's even invisible, sometimes it's not invisible like a woman knows she's not saying what's her on mind, other times she doesn't even know she's not … I mean the right to fucking speak. Yeah. We had to think into account, women are not free on this planet like it's just a few privileged countries and it just started 50 years ago and less, in some countries, 100 years ago.
Kasia: This whole thing is new, we were property, we didn't get to vote, we didn't to have jobs and all of the planet we still are property. It's hard for us to realize and to have respect for the fact that all the shitty is really fucking new, we're just starting. It matters that part of the population that gets pregnant and gives birth is essentially in slave conditions and considered property in a huge, huge percentage of the planet.
Kasia: Then the percentage of planet where we are free we're still psychologically chained because this transitions only started to happen five minutes ago if you think of all human history. You and I are here on this planet in this time and we're going to do our part to make it more fucking juicy and fun and hot and embodied and powerful and explore and make mistakes around words like femininity or misunderstanding, understanding gender.
Kasia: One way we look at it and then five years later we look at it a totally different way, what was sexual harassment? What's sexual harassment today? What's flirting 20 years ago?
Anna: I know, right?
Kasia: Yeah. There is a space for both being fucking fierce and bold in the changes we want to see, and also keeping in perspectives that we're just getting started, this is all new, we're like infants, we're trying to figure out what being a man means, being a woman means, being transgendered means, also like what the fuck are romantic relationships for, marriages for. These are new questions that we didn't have to ask ourselves and we have the privilege.
Kasia: We have the privilege, you and I have the privilege of being fucking confused about it, exploring it and then having lots of smart answers and leading people like, "Hey guys, I found this out, check this out. Hey guys, I think [crosstalk 01:03:01] like feminine embodiment coaching works." I'm like, "Power dynamics, check this out. I learned this in the dungeon. This is how I get to have a magical life. This is how I get really powerful and get what I want." "Hey, try this."
Kasia: I feel like I'm the first generation in my family ancestry that gets to have what I want, I get to have what I want. I don't think my mother or her mother or her mother's mother had any of the privileges I have, and I intend to make full outrageously indulgent use of them. I intend to take advantage of every single privilege I have that they did not in their fucking name. Every time I party in my life I'm like, this is for my female ancestor. You didn't get to do this? I do, I get to have a harem of beautiful men.
Kasia: I get to have world travel and write books and I get to speak outrageously and offended people. I get to have unconventional sexual relationships. I get to wear crazy clothes. I'm not getting burned to the stake. I'm not getting stoned to death. I'm not being forced to be married or anything I don't want to do. I can take for breakfast. I don't have to brush my teeth. I basically can do whatever the fact I want and I don't know any previous generation that got to do that.
Anna: Absolutely. I always say whenever I go on podcast or work with women I'm like, "This is such a fucking incredible time for women." Never have we had so much opportunity, "freedom" or possibility to do whatever the fuck we want. You're right, we've just described it. I've shifted that perspective and I live in the mentality and the space of possibility and I so much appreciate it. I would love for more and more women to see that instead of as you mentioned before the revenge to everything, how everything is so fucked up and blah, blah, blah, whatever.
Anna: Kasia, I have this question for you which I find is very important. It relates to everything we're talking about. You talked about the bittersweet victory of the independent woman. What is that victory and why is it bittersweet?
Kasia: We're talking about in the span of human history moving from let's just say a move where women all had to be submissive and now can have dominant positions, positions of authority. A lot of women, what they're doing is they're taking on having positions of authority and leadership and still accommodating and doing a lot of the … This is not super accurate. I want to say they're both dominant and submissive at the same time but I actually mean is they're doing a lot of the things that men previously always did and only men did but without the support that men had.
Kasia: Up until really recently, the best thing you could hope for in your life was to marry well if you are a woman. Men did all this shit with wives and support systems that women don't have, and women are still being wives, women are still being the support system. Even when they're not, a lot of the psychological habits and the socialized habits are still there. Women don't ask for what they need, they ask for less than they need, they don't ask for what they want.
Kasia: I've seen so many women even in the workplace try to do so much with so little and patting themselves on the back for it. I think women are incredibly isolated. One of the impacts of this thing we call patriarchy is that women aren't good with each other and they're not being supported by men. They're not being supported by the men they compete with at work. They're giving a lot to their male partners when they had her sexual. They're not being supported by women.
Kasia: They're isolated, they've worked their asses off. They are resistant to receiving help. They feel less than and weak when they are adored, cherished, worshiped, nourished, nurtured, helped, anything that makes them feel less than. This is like, "Yay, I'm the boss, I'm independent, I can do everything myself. I'm totally self-sufficient and I'm fucking exhausted. I don't know how to ask for help in a way that makes me feel stronger rather than weaker. I don't have a support system, I am the support system of everyone I know.
Kasia: I even am the support system of all my friends. I give everyone advice. I make sure that everyone in the community is safe and healthy and at work and I'm killing it. I don't need money from a man. I don't need anything from, anyone." We get fibromyalgia or autoimmune disorders or-
Anna: Right, or infertility issues, or a bunch of other things.
Kasia: Yeah. Yeah. It's like, "Yay, I'm independent, isn't it bittersweet?" Human beings do things. Anything worth doing is really worth doing with others. Nobody really does anything great alone and there's just this huge … Especially in America, there's like pull yourself up by your own bootstraps mythology. It's total bullshit because every guy who's self-made was actually supported by so many people in ways that are just culturally invisible, even in the way he gets pat on the back when he's a boy.
Kasia: Even the way he gets told, "Look what you did, you did such a good job," rather than hearing what girls hear, "Look how pretty you are. Look how lovely you are." The difference between being rewarded for what you do versus how you are is huge. Yeah, that's my rant on … My rant-
Anna: No, I love it. In fact, I talk about the modern … I called it the modern female epidemic which you just described. I just actually recorded a one hour my life's work in a webinar that's called The Lie of Female Success & How It's Keeping You Stuck, Unfulfilled & Drained, and that is exactly the name or a paraphrase of The Bittersweet Victor of the Independent Woman.
Anna: I feel like this is such an important message in so many of us who just are not aware of it. I became aware of it on my quest to femininity. Today, I ask my husband and all the men around and all the women around to do things for me. Like what you said in the beginning, your superpower is to ask for help from other people that fucking feels good and I feel great about it.
Anna: I'm still working actually on it because I feel like I have this again the bittersweet victor of independent woman is in me. I feel bad sometimes for even asking my husband to carry something that's heavy and I'm pregnant, and then I have to work through this, but it's a muscle, but it's crazy. Yes. It's like a [crosstalk 01:10:31].
Kasia: If you were my student I'd tell you to do what I tell all my pregnant students to do, which be what it's like to totally, totally, totally, totally take advantage of your pregnancy, how much you can get away with. Really, just for the next four months or five months, see what you can get out of being pregnant.
Anna: I've been doing this and it's been fucking incredible because I'm telling everyone, "I'm sorry, could you help me? I'm pregnant," like physically, emotionally-
Kasia: Yeah. Why are you saying it like a victim? Even though what you just said it right now you should be like, "I'm pregnant. I'm making humans, give me that seat. What else do you want from me? I need people."
Anna: Yeah. This is an exercise because it's new for me as well. I've gone through a terrible first trimester where I just went down the rabbit hole, and then now he comes from work when I was doing nothing, "doing … It's like, "What did you do today?" I say, "I was making a baby today." Now he looks at me, he's like, "Okay," but he understands. Anyways, this has been a great conversation, Kasia. I think you should come back to the podcast then we can just talk for hours and hours, but unfortunately we have to wrap up.
Anna: I just got one last question for you before we go into now some of the people you follow and books you can recommend. I love this concept when you talk about power, you're actually redefining what we mean by power. In fact, not actually redefining, you're actually defining it for all of us because I don't think we understand what it means. Right now today, we think that power is all … Men have the power and we don't have the power.
Anna: I love how you say that the sub-dom and your experience in the dominatrix has taught you or the revelation was it's human, yeah, so we can play with it. It doesn't matter what gender you are. It is just power the more we have and how we use it. Now, you're teaching women to use it obviously, but talk to us a little bit about the true definition of power and how can we use it every day in our interactions.
Kasia: Okay. I wouldn't say true definition of power but I would say a very useful definition of power. I use this definition of power, it tends to be very satisfying. A powerful person is one that has powerful relationships, and a powerful relationship is one where what you give to the other person. You love to give, they love to receive and they use very well. What they love to give to you, you receive and love to receive and use well.
Kasia: This may seem super simplistic but if you think about it they really take a look at your community and the people in your life whether they're your professional people, your family people, your lovers, your friends. The greatest power comes from being in this position and having created these relationships where you are essentially the center of a very powerful network where resources are shared, whether they're emotional or financial or intellectual, extremely well.
Kasia: Behavioral economist's definition of power is the person or a group of people who has the most power has the most amount of resources. This really, really just shrinks down resources into gas, land, water.
Anna: Material resources.
Kasia: Yeah. I'm talking about material resources too, money. I'm talking about emotional resources. I'm talking about in those relationships that are powerful, there's a very generative and synergetic flow of creative ideas, of solutions, imaginations used to build things. I think one of the worst crimes of the patriarchy is how isolated human beings are. Our idea of community is totally destroyed. This definition of power means you have created and are in a very powerful community of people who are all in powerful relationship to you.
Anna: Love it. Love it. It's transcending beyond us versus them, you versus me, man versus woman. How can we create a win-win situation for everyone where we are all powerful? Gaining energy from all of the resources that we share and resources are not scarce, we create the resources. It is the abundance that we live in.
Kasia: Right. Yeah, I agree.
Anna: Yeah, and you are teaching women that. Tell us, Kasia, for everybody listening and … Are you doing workshops only in New York or traveling around the country or what's your activity now?
Kasia: We meanly do them in New York, the schools in New York. I do travel around the world doing workshops but right now we're expending our online school a lot. We have our Verbal Self-Defense Dojo program which is the first step in breaking the moment where women freeze in argument or fight or negotiation. We're about to launch a whole series of other ones, and I travel a lot.
Anna: Love it. Where can women go and take the workshops or follow you online or get to know more? I feel like your work is incredible, all women just need to get that.
Kasia: Thank you. Thank you. The easiest thing to do is just to go to the website. We teach power.com and see what's listed there, especially while I'm on my summer travels.
Anna: Yeah, love it, love it. I love that you're branching online as well because there's so much more possibility, opportunity to just reach [crosstalk 01:16:44].
Kasia: We're having so much fun with our online programs right now because the … Especially the first one, the training program, you basically get to scream at a screen where a sleazy man is saying shitty things to you. You're getting strategies and tools on what to say back and how and the effect that it has which is super fan, because that's the shit women hear all the time and it's also some things that we hope to never ever, ever, ever hear.
Anna: Yeah. Just one last thing before we go. I was thinking about the work that you're doing and the women who come to you and I was just thinking like, what is different about me that I don't … Because you teach, ask with a questions, answer with another question, put attention on him. Since I was a little girl and I guess it was just inherent at me because I was always rebellious.
Anna: I never allowed anyone to cross my boundaries. I think the biggest test for me was within evil stepmother that I was in a mission to completely subjugates, do me or dominate and I never allowed it. Therefore, we got into fights and to me leaving the house, her being suicidal, whatever. Then it continued through life where … I'm sure I could benefit from the training, absolutely, and I would love to come to your workshop.
Anna: Somehow I have this boundary in the defense that you don't fuck with me but at the same time I tried to come from a place of love and empathy and even towards men who are trying to come and, I don't know, kick me up or whatever.
Kasia: Maybe you had a weak father.
Anna: I don't know, my father was very conservative. I don't know, I'm just thinking what makes … I guess it's a personality thing. I had to mature very quickly because my mother passed away when I was basically left alone since I was eight. I had to figure out my way up in the world. Yeah. Yeah.
Anna: Perhaps it's that but I was just thinking like I'm a woman but then why don't I have that and why … I know why. I do appreciate the masculine because on the other podcast I was interviewing men about women in relationships and I understood what you talked about the wounded masculine and how they are human and they're just so confused now and what the fuck do I do with this feminist men, how do I support women.
Anna: Actually, there are not many resources for men now and I just forced this documentary. I don't know Kasia if you watched them, The Red Pill, about the men's rights movement?
Kasia: No.
Anna: It's just fascinating and then talks about all the men in shoes and how they do it. Anyways, so it's been great conversation. Let's finish up Kasia with some of the people. Who are the people that you follow today perhaps online or anywhere else for inspiration that you love to recommend?
Kasia: That's just so difficult, this is a question that stumps me all the time.
Anna: Really? Why?
Kasia: Because the answer is I don't.
Anna: No one. Okay.
Kasia: For the last five years and since I started the school, I stopped reading, I stopped watching TV, I stopped all media input, I stopped reading articles, I stopped doing research. Basically I stopped all incoming information that was not the classroom. I spent most of my time in the classroom watching human beings, watching women, watching their habits, watching their body language, learning the patterns, learning how to break the patterns, learning what works.
Kasia: I went on a really severe, not just media but information fast. I wanted to find something that was devoid of anything that I had been … As to create as pure, a phenomenological space as possible, as clean a laboratory as possible. There are no books that created what happened in the classroom and then the laboratory of the school. Roman Polanski's movie Venus in Fur is fascinating but it's not … Actually, I would recommend that people watch that and I would recommend that people read Cesar Millan's book the Dog Whisperer, the first one.
Kasia: Aside from that, I don't know what much else to say except I'm currently writing a book and I hope when it comes out everybody reads it.
Anna: I hope so too. Perhaps what I've been doing is exactly the same. I'm creating my own laboratory because I stopped watching news, I'm drained by social media, I can't fucking stand it, I'm not reading blogs, I'm not reading anything. I think I'm doing the same thing as in like asking myself the questions, talking to women, working with women, being on interviews like asking you the questions that create neural pathways and I'm just discovering it all for myself.
Kasia: Fuck yeah. Fuck yeah.
Anna: Even the training that I recorded and working one on one with women, because I know if I'm going to go and start, my God, research competitors, and I'm like, "I don't want to do all of that because I'm just get influenced. I'm going to start feeling incompetent that I don't know anything and it's like comparing myself like, "You know what, I'm done with that." I'm just doing my thing, that's it.
Kasia: Yeah. Also the wonderful thing about life is that all mysteries reveal themselves in good time when we put our attention on what it is that we want to know. We have all of the answers, and the ability to sit in uncertainty and in ambiguity and feel and allow the treats to reveal itself like you have all the fucking answers.
Anna: My body has the answers too.
Kasia: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do believe it's important to seek wise teachers and to respect the sages and to learn from tradition. I spend most of my life learning in very specific ways, and this especially since the founding of the schools has been really important for me to go very deeply internal and stay very present and stay very, very neutral, and as free of influence as possible and as deeply influenced by what I see in front of me moment by moment as possible. Staying almost like innocent of my past training.
Anna: Love it. Kasia, I feel like you're like my older sister in a way on this journey because I know you've experienced … I guess, I don't want to compare experiences but it really feels like I can learn so much from you and I really feel like we've connected on some deeper level I suppose. I want to thank you so much for coming for the work you're doing.
Anna: Once your book is out, I'd love to spread the message and support. I hope we meet in person one day one of your workshops or who knows, wherever else in the world. If you're in Australia for the next two years, I'd love to meet up.
Kasia: Wonderful.
Anna: Thanks so much for coming.
Kasia: Thank you so much. It's so lovely meeting you and so lovely talking with you. Thank you.
